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	<title>Comments on: Four Pillars: Further musings on trust</title>
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	<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/</link>
	<description>a blog about information</description>
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		<title>By: Connecting Bristol &#187; Workstream 3 Draft</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-24132</link>
		<dc:creator>Connecting Bristol &#187; Workstream 3 Draft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Nov 2006 17:46:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-24132</guid>
		<description>[...] In each of the five initial neighbourhoods (links to Dick&#8217;s bit on the neighbourhoods) we will work with the lead organisation to identify and develop mentors, and link them with development activities and courses to ensure that they are proficient and knowledgeable in their field. There is no specific number of mentors per neighbourhood and a light-touch mechanism will be established to allow neighbourhoods to nominate and manage mentors. In addition to specific training and personal development we will provide access to a high level eletronic resource that will allow them to locate and find information and training courses for themselves and their mentees. This high level resource would work across exisiting provision such as through local Knowle West Web, the national ICT Hub directory, KnowledgeHub. This new resource will be commissioned from local organisations and follow an agile and rapid development cycle to quickly try out new ideas, designs, services, data resources and take ideas from individual citizens, mentors, communities, Council, business and others. It is recognised that many of the differences will not be better and will be dropped, but it is also recognised that the best ideas will be different. Each of the neighourhoods will develop a local flavour, with their local network of mentors connecting throught the Digital Challenge to provide a city-wide breadth of expertise and support. Recognising that physcial communtiy is vital, we will support (and where necessary provide for) the development and furbishment of suitable community spaces (community centres, libraries, social clubs, new leases, what ever is most appropriate for the local neighbourhood). This will work in concert with existing initiatives such as Extened Schools and others. We will also develop a mentor-matching and community diary service that will, similar to Slivers of Time. We will also investigate the potential of points, trust, Local Exchange Trading Systems, and other methods for recognising value. In recognition that not all young people are digitial experts, we will encourage projects and initiatives that foster intergenerational mentoring. We will also promote and encourage projects and initiatives that involve inter-community mentoring. While basic skills are critical to a sustainable future, we also need the participation of industry, both in providing resourcs but also progression routes for those that wish to move into employment or to improve their employment prospects. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] In each of the five initial neighbourhoods (links to Dick&#8217;s bit on the neighbourhoods) we will work with the lead organisation to identify and develop mentors, and link them with development activities and courses to ensure that they are proficient and knowledgeable in their field. There is no specific number of mentors per neighbourhood and a light-touch mechanism will be established to allow neighbourhoods to nominate and manage mentors. In addition to specific training and personal development we will provide access to a high level eletronic resource that will allow them to locate and find information and training courses for themselves and their mentees. This high level resource would work across exisiting provision such as through local Knowle West Web, the national ICT Hub directory, KnowledgeHub. This new resource will be commissioned from local organisations and follow an agile and rapid development cycle to quickly try out new ideas, designs, services, data resources and take ideas from individual citizens, mentors, communities, Council, business and others. It is recognised that many of the differences will not be better and will be dropped, but it is also recognised that the best ideas will be different. Each of the neighourhoods will develop a local flavour, with their local network of mentors connecting throught the Digital Challenge to provide a city-wide breadth of expertise and support. Recognising that physcial communtiy is vital, we will support (and where necessary provide for) the development and furbishment of suitable community spaces (community centres, libraries, social clubs, new leases, what ever is most appropriate for the local neighbourhood). This will work in concert with existing initiatives such as Extened Schools and others. We will also develop a mentor-matching and community diary service that will, similar to Slivers of Time. We will also investigate the potential of points, trust, Local Exchange Trading Systems, and other methods for recognising value. In recognition that not all young people are digitial experts, we will encourage projects and initiatives that foster intergenerational mentoring. We will also promote and encourage projects and initiatives that involve inter-community mentoring. While basic skills are critical to a sustainable future, we also need the participation of industry, both in providing resourcs but also progression routes for those that wish to move into employment or to improve their employment prospects. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Equity Kicker &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On Trust</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-4709</link>
		<dc:creator>The Equity Kicker &#187; Blog Archive &#187; On Trust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 09:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-4709</guid>
		<description>[...] (Thanks to JP for this insight which came when I was reading Four Pillars - Further Musings on Trust). [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] (Thanks to JP for this insight which came when I was reading Four Pillars &#8211; Further Musings on Trust). [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Nic Brisbourne</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-843</link>
		<dc:creator>Nic Brisbourne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jun 2006 18:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-843</guid>
		<description>I would think about the dichotomy between trust and contracts in the following way.

Trust works well in communities that are self policing - members want to be members, members understand the unwritten rules (which are more about spirit than letter), people who break the rules are thrown out so most people don&#039;t break the rules.

Examples of self policing communities are open source communities and Ebay.

If the community is not self policing - i.e. people can get away with gaming the system then contracts and enforcement regimes are required.  The result - as evidenced in the numerous examples ahead of this comment - people follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the contract.

The problem we face today is that the old social contract has broken down due to too much movement of people, alienation of much of the work force (not often I get to use Marxist concepts these days ...) and a general breakdown of community.  The response on many levels from ASBOs to regulation to employee handbooks has been to try and legislate.  

A better solution in some areas at least is to find ways to rebuild trust.  Open source communities achieve this through a combination of peer review and hierarchy. 

I am starting to wonder if there is space for some kind of trust infrastructure on the web driven by standards setters (e.g. RNIB for accessability or ICRA for child safety) or by peer review in some way which can&#039;t be gamed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would think about the dichotomy between trust and contracts in the following way.</p>
<p>Trust works well in communities that are self policing &#8211; members want to be members, members understand the unwritten rules (which are more about spirit than letter), people who break the rules are thrown out so most people don&#8217;t break the rules.</p>
<p>Examples of self policing communities are open source communities and Ebay.</p>
<p>If the community is not self policing &#8211; i.e. people can get away with gaming the system then contracts and enforcement regimes are required.  The result &#8211; as evidenced in the numerous examples ahead of this comment &#8211; people follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the contract.</p>
<p>The problem we face today is that the old social contract has broken down due to too much movement of people, alienation of much of the work force (not often I get to use Marxist concepts these days &#8230;) and a general breakdown of community.  The response on many levels from ASBOs to regulation to employee handbooks has been to try and legislate.  </p>
<p>A better solution in some areas at least is to find ways to rebuild trust.  Open source communities achieve this through a combination of peer review and hierarchy. </p>
<p>I am starting to wonder if there is space for some kind of trust infrastructure on the web driven by standards setters (e.g. RNIB for accessability or ICRA for child safety) or by peer review in some way which can&#8217;t be gamed.</p>
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		<title>By: zakmundo</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-811</link>
		<dc:creator>zakmundo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jun 2006 10:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-811</guid>
		<description>I think what you want to say is this:

With full disclosure, individuals, markets and organisations will naturally behave in a utility-generating way.

Utility can be money, happiness, efficiency etc.

Without such disclosure, such behaviour will not result, and this tends to drive the policy response embedded in regulation and contract. But given that regulation and contract are trying to order behaviour that is based on undisclosed information, they cannot be perfect, and are by definition inefficient. In many cases they are so inefficient that they produce perverse results (potentially able leaders being put off from the CEO role?)

So the conclusion would be :  enforce the disclosure of information, not the behaviour response to that information (look at recent debates on FSA/ISDA disclosure of derivative positions for a real world example).

Is this ground-breaking stuff? No - is very basic economic theory, and is the bedrock of undergraduate level work on perfect and efficient markets. Go read Tim Hartford (&quot;Undercover Economist&quot;) and Steve Levvitt (&quot;Freakonomics&quot;) for more real-world illustrations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what you want to say is this:</p>
<p>With full disclosure, individuals, markets and organisations will naturally behave in a utility-generating way.</p>
<p>Utility can be money, happiness, efficiency etc.</p>
<p>Without such disclosure, such behaviour will not result, and this tends to drive the policy response embedded in regulation and contract. But given that regulation and contract are trying to order behaviour that is based on undisclosed information, they cannot be perfect, and are by definition inefficient. In many cases they are so inefficient that they produce perverse results (potentially able leaders being put off from the CEO role?)</p>
<p>So the conclusion would be :  enforce the disclosure of information, not the behaviour response to that information (look at recent debates on FSA/ISDA disclosure of derivative positions for a real world example).</p>
<p>Is this ground-breaking stuff? No &#8211; is very basic economic theory, and is the bedrock of undergraduate level work on perfect and efficient markets. Go read Tim Hartford (&#8220;Undercover Economist&#8221;) and Steve Levvitt (&#8220;Freakonomics&#8221;) for more real-world illustrations.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-806</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jun 2006 09:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-806</guid>
		<description>Somewhat lengthy response examining the Citigroup raid on MTS and its implications for trust in the markets here...

http://etrading.wordpress.com/2006/06/14/my-word-is-my-bond-musings-on-trust-and-the-mts-raid/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somewhat lengthy response examining the Citigroup raid on MTS and its implications for trust in the markets here&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://etrading.wordpress.com/2006/06/14/my-word-is-my-bond-musings-on-trust-and-the-mts-raid/" rel="nofollow">http://etrading.wordpress.com/2006/06/14/my-word-is-my-bond-musings-on-trust-and-the-mts-raid/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Martin Geddes</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-751</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Geddes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 16:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-751</guid>
		<description>Another thought from my own world of telephony: we&#039;ve had hundreds of millions of people install landline phones in their homes.  Little bells that can ring and get your attention.  Clearly of great interest to marketers, who want to seize your attention.  Yet some fairly simple analogue laws manage to keep telephone spam under control.  No digital solution required.  No smartcards for every telephone user, passwords, biometrics, national ID cards, or potent crytographic algorithms.

Did you ever read about CMG group in the UK, who used to internally publish everyone&#039;s salary details?  Maybe they were just ahead of their time.

Who would fiddle an expenses claim if they were all just published on the intranet for anyone to see?

Information hoarding isn&#039;t compatible with a loosely coupled, permeable enterprise.  A place where people pass through as they focus on excellence in one activity or process across many companies.

&quot;Circles of trust&quot; -- this is a group of friends in a pub, not a meaningful social construct within and between enterprises.  The moment you delineate trust, you destroy it.

Unfortunately, as the CIO of a bank, your hands are somewhat tied by regulation here -- a culture of &quot;verify, then trust&quot;.  Expensive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought from my own world of telephony: we&#8217;ve had hundreds of millions of people install landline phones in their homes.  Little bells that can ring and get your attention.  Clearly of great interest to marketers, who want to seize your attention.  Yet some fairly simple analogue laws manage to keep telephone spam under control.  No digital solution required.  No smartcards for every telephone user, passwords, biometrics, national ID cards, or potent crytographic algorithms.</p>
<p>Did you ever read about CMG group in the UK, who used to internally publish everyone&#8217;s salary details?  Maybe they were just ahead of their time.</p>
<p>Who would fiddle an expenses claim if they were all just published on the intranet for anyone to see?</p>
<p>Information hoarding isn&#8217;t compatible with a loosely coupled, permeable enterprise.  A place where people pass through as they focus on excellence in one activity or process across many companies.</p>
<p>&#8220;Circles of trust&#8221; &#8212; this is a group of friends in a pub, not a meaningful social construct within and between enterprises.  The moment you delineate trust, you destroy it.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, as the CIO of a bank, your hands are somewhat tied by regulation here &#8212; a culture of &#8220;verify, then trust&#8221;.  Expensive.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 14:55:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-747</guid>
		<description>Yes, we need new metaphors, but we need to be careful. I think people have a greater inbuilt resistance to new metaphors than we give them debit for.

This metaphor and meme issue affects every big debate we have. The Internet. Identity. Intellectual Property Rights.

We may use terms like Net Neutrality and Internet Governance and liken the internet to places and communities and roads and whatever. We may use terms like trust and privacy and confidentiality and permissioning and authentication and digital rights and wrongs. We may use terms like information security and knowledge management. And intellectual property and copyright and patent.

Terms are where the battles are being fought today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, we need new metaphors, but we need to be careful. I think people have a greater inbuilt resistance to new metaphors than we give them debit for.</p>
<p>This metaphor and meme issue affects every big debate we have. The Internet. Identity. Intellectual Property Rights.</p>
<p>We may use terms like Net Neutrality and Internet Governance and liken the internet to places and communities and roads and whatever. We may use terms like trust and privacy and confidentiality and permissioning and authentication and digital rights and wrongs. We may use terms like information security and knowledge management. And intellectual property and copyright and patent.</p>
<p>Terms are where the battles are being fought today.</p>
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		<title>By: YGG</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-732</link>
		<dc:creator>YGG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 09:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-732</guid>
		<description>So the next question would be -nacherly- what would be the appropriate, future-oriented metaphors we could use instead?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the next question would be -nacherly- what would be the appropriate, future-oriented metaphors we could use instead?</p>
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		<title>By: YGG</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-730</link>
		<dc:creator>YGG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 07:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-730</guid>
		<description>Iâ€™m wondering: could it be that â€“part ofâ€”the question stemmed from our mental models? Most of the present expressions &amp; metaphors about the web come from the military/prison areas: passwords, checkpoints, DMZ, backdoor, locks &amp; what-notâ€¦could it be that we donâ€™t have â€“yetâ€”the mental models that would fit that â€“not soâ€”new paradigm?
I have been working for some time on a metaphor view of the web (in the spirit of Gareth Morganâ€™s â€˜Images of the organizationâ€™); it certainly connects at all levels with the â€˜four pillarsâ€™ problematic &amp;with the identity question.
For instance: what if the web worked like an immune system (rather then a high security prison)?
Or am I already late?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iâ€™m wondering: could it be that â€“part ofâ€”the question stemmed from our mental models? Most of the present expressions &amp; metaphors about the web come from the military/prison areas: passwords, checkpoints, DMZ, backdoor, locks &amp; what-notâ€¦could it be that we donâ€™t have â€“yetâ€”the mental models that would fit that â€“not soâ€”new paradigm?<br />
I have been working for some time on a metaphor view of the web (in the spirit of Gareth Morganâ€™s â€˜Images of the organizationâ€™); it certainly connects at all levels with the â€˜four pillarsâ€™ problematic &amp;with the identity question.<br />
For instance: what if the web worked like an immune system (rather then a high security prison)?<br />
Or am I already late?</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/comment-page-1/#comment-727</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jun 2006 06:33:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/06/12/four-pillars-further-musings-on-trust/#comment-727</guid>
		<description>Couldn&#039;t have asked for a more thought-provoking response, Martin. That&#039;s exactly what I&#039;ve been driving at, whether we&#039;re busy paving the cowpaths of a past paradigm; much worse, are we trying to replicate what may have been necessary for a period in time, but has no significance either before or after that period.

Let&#039;s see where this goes :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Couldn&#8217;t have asked for a more thought-provoking response, Martin. That&#8217;s exactly what I&#8217;ve been driving at, whether we&#8217;re busy paving the cowpaths of a past paradigm; much worse, are we trying to replicate what may have been necessary for a period in time, but has no significance either before or after that period.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s see where this goes :-)</p>
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