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	<title>Comments on: More musing about search: The role of the &#8220;livebrarian&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/</link>
	<description>a blog about information</description>
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		<title>By: Cornelius Puschmann</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9456</link>
		<dc:creator>Cornelius Puschmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Sep 2006 00:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9456</guid>
		<description>I think that this discussion is really about a basic problem of information retrieval:

Whom do we trust?

We trust a) those who we know to have provided us with valuable, accurate and reliable information in the past and b) those who we know (many) others to place trust in.

Ergo, information without social context (because trust is a part of the larger social context) is a useless. How do I know that someone is a &quot;trained professional&quot;? Because some authority that I believe to be trustworthy told me so and because he has proven his expertise to me in the past. Now, why do I read JP Rangaswami&#039;s blog and not that of some random MySpacer? Because I know that he&#039;s an innovate thinker and experienced information technologist. Because other people whose writing I like link to him. And, most importantly, because I deduct from the fact that I found his past blogs interesting that his future blogs will be relevant as well.

I think this transcends the debate about &quot;web vs. library&quot; and &quot;experts vs. amateurs&quot;. The expertise of the lone librarian who is incredibly knowledgeable is invisible to me unless I&#039;ve met him in person, unless the building he works in is around the corner or at least in the same city, unless I have proof (!) that my trust in him is well placed.

What it boils down to is trusting institutions vs. trusting individuals. The New York Times has managed to grow to be a trusted institution over a long period of time, in a forest with just a few tall trees - the old media ecology. Now we&#039;re suddenly in the middle of the jungle (sorry for the silly metaphor), where it&#039;s much more difficult for such an institution to grow slowly over many generations, because on the web institutions are no longer causally local, no longer closer or further away from me. To take this one step further: institutions are already virtual in that they aren&#039;t people - on-line they are doubly virtual because they also lack an individual identity.

But trusting people still works. We do what we&#039;ve always done - building social networks - and we do it because we believe that those in our network can provide the most reliable advice. The problem with the web in its primitive current stage is simply that there is an ocean of anonymous voices that posses no authority precisely because they&#039;re anonymous.

Lastly, before you accuse me of propagating some sort of &quot;information mob rule&quot;: my point is not that information and knowledge are relative and debatable, or that whatever trusted person X says is always right. My point is that we face the exact same problems on the web and with user-created content that we face in the real world whenever we look for information - whom do we trust? The answer can only be that we trust those that we know, be it in person (which is always preferable) or only virtually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that this discussion is really about a basic problem of information retrieval:</p>
<p>Whom do we trust?</p>
<p>We trust a) those who we know to have provided us with valuable, accurate and reliable information in the past and b) those who we know (many) others to place trust in.</p>
<p>Ergo, information without social context (because trust is a part of the larger social context) is a useless. How do I know that someone is a &#8220;trained professional&#8221;? Because some authority that I believe to be trustworthy told me so and because he has proven his expertise to me in the past. Now, why do I read JP Rangaswami&#8217;s blog and not that of some random MySpacer? Because I know that he&#8217;s an innovate thinker and experienced information technologist. Because other people whose writing I like link to him. And, most importantly, because I deduct from the fact that I found his past blogs interesting that his future blogs will be relevant as well.</p>
<p>I think this transcends the debate about &#8220;web vs. library&#8221; and &#8220;experts vs. amateurs&#8221;. The expertise of the lone librarian who is incredibly knowledgeable is invisible to me unless I&#8217;ve met him in person, unless the building he works in is around the corner or at least in the same city, unless I have proof (!) that my trust in him is well placed.</p>
<p>What it boils down to is trusting institutions vs. trusting individuals. The New York Times has managed to grow to be a trusted institution over a long period of time, in a forest with just a few tall trees &#8211; the old media ecology. Now we&#8217;re suddenly in the middle of the jungle (sorry for the silly metaphor), where it&#8217;s much more difficult for such an institution to grow slowly over many generations, because on the web institutions are no longer causally local, no longer closer or further away from me. To take this one step further: institutions are already virtual in that they aren&#8217;t people &#8211; on-line they are doubly virtual because they also lack an individual identity.</p>
<p>But trusting people still works. We do what we&#8217;ve always done &#8211; building social networks &#8211; and we do it because we believe that those in our network can provide the most reliable advice. The problem with the web in its primitive current stage is simply that there is an ocean of anonymous voices that posses no authority precisely because they&#8217;re anonymous.</p>
<p>Lastly, before you accuse me of propagating some sort of &#8220;information mob rule&#8221;: my point is not that information and knowledge are relative and debatable, or that whatever trusted person X says is always right. My point is that we face the exact same problems on the web and with user-created content that we face in the real world whenever we look for information &#8211; whom do we trust? The answer can only be that we trust those that we know, be it in person (which is always preferable) or only virtually.</p>
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		<title>By: Confused Of Calcutta &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Continuing with the &#8220;livebrarian&#8221; theme</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9170</link>
		<dc:creator>Confused Of Calcutta &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Continuing with the &#8220;livebrarian&#8221; theme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 22:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9170</guid>
		<description>[...] Confused Of Calcutta    &#171; More musing about search: The role of the &#8220;livebrarian&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Confused Of Calcutta    &laquo; More musing about search: The role of the &#8220;livebrarian&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Andersen</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9161</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Andersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 21:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9161</guid>
		<description>I am tired of this comparison between libraries and the web.  Why must it be one or the other?  Why can&#039;t we simply recognize the benefits of each system (which changes depending on who you are, by the way) and use them for what they are good for?  I use the Internet for lots of things, but when I need real advice about how best to conduct certain research, or which reference materials are most authoritative, I&#039;ll seek an experienced Librarian every time.  And its not about &quot;any damned fool&quot; being a librarian - you could say that about lots of thing.  What is important is who actually has the energy and passion for information organization and access.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am tired of this comparison between libraries and the web.  Why must it be one or the other?  Why can&#8217;t we simply recognize the benefits of each system (which changes depending on who you are, by the way) and use them for what they are good for?  I use the Internet for lots of things, but when I need real advice about how best to conduct certain research, or which reference materials are most authoritative, I&#8217;ll seek an experienced Librarian every time.  And its not about &#8220;any damned fool&#8221; being a librarian &#8211; you could say that about lots of thing.  What is important is who actually has the energy and passion for information organization and access.</p>
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		<title>By: paul simmons</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9141</link>
		<dc:creator>paul simmons</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:48:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9141</guid>
		<description>Jp, on the subject of culling and weeding the livebrary, I don&#039;t think you push the idea far enough.  I&#039;ve always felt unused, untagged or unpopular links should just fade away. Go grey and archive themselves.
This places time as a crucial dimension of the web, such that now is more relevant than then. 
Do you think this is the case?

As an aside, maybe this concept should apply within applications whereby never used features could dissolve to on-demand plugins, as direct feedback to the community that created it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jp, on the subject of culling and weeding the livebrary, I don&#8217;t think you push the idea far enough.  I&#8217;ve always felt unused, untagged or unpopular links should just fade away. Go grey and archive themselves.<br />
This places time as a crucial dimension of the web, such that now is more relevant than then.<br />
Do you think this is the case?</p>
<p>As an aside, maybe this concept should apply within applications whereby never used features could dissolve to on-demand plugins, as direct feedback to the community that created it.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Smoliar</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9121</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Smoliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9121</guid>
		<description>anant, I do not know if you have seen Yahoo! Answers.  I think it is an excellent example of what you DO NOT want!  The URL is:

http://answers.yahoo.com/

The problem is that it dodges that critical adjective you use, &quot;qualified.&quot;  The result is that it is just another social space where the environment has a different structure.  (Also, I think it is hobbled by the fact that you are limited to 110 characters for your question!)

This moves me into JP&#039;s domain.  Most important is that I am not sure what JP was trying to say about training and education.  Here in the United States, you need both education AND training to be a librarian (and, for that matter, to be any form of journalist).  This is how you get the right balance of theory and practice.

My other point is that you do not deal with complexity by either finessing it or ignoring it.  There is a lot of wisdom behind recognizing that a question may NOT have a simple answer.  (As H. L. Mencken said, &quot;For every complex question, there is a simple answer ... and it is WRONG!&quot;)  Expertise is not about secret signs;  it is about being adequately credentialed to speak with authority in a given domain of discourse.  If you seriously believe that markets are conversations, then I would think you also need to respect the value of authoritativeness in the texts of those conversations!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>anant, I do not know if you have seen Yahoo! Answers.  I think it is an excellent example of what you DO NOT want!  The URL is:</p>
<p><a href="http://answers.yahoo.com/" rel="nofollow">http://answers.yahoo.com/</a></p>
<p>The problem is that it dodges that critical adjective you use, &#8220;qualified.&#8221;  The result is that it is just another social space where the environment has a different structure.  (Also, I think it is hobbled by the fact that you are limited to 110 characters for your question!)</p>
<p>This moves me into JP&#8217;s domain.  Most important is that I am not sure what JP was trying to say about training and education.  Here in the United States, you need both education AND training to be a librarian (and, for that matter, to be any form of journalist).  This is how you get the right balance of theory and practice.</p>
<p>My other point is that you do not deal with complexity by either finessing it or ignoring it.  There is a lot of wisdom behind recognizing that a question may NOT have a simple answer.  (As H. L. Mencken said, &#8220;For every complex question, there is a simple answer &#8230; and it is WRONG!&#8221;)  Expertise is not about secret signs;  it is about being adequately credentialed to speak with authority in a given domain of discourse.  If you seriously believe that markets are conversations, then I would think you also need to respect the value of authoritativeness in the texts of those conversations!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Miller</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9116</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9116</guid>
		<description>JP - some interesting points, to which I offer one possible &#039;library&#039; response over at http://blogs.talis.com/panlibus/archives/2006/09/jp_rangaswami_c.php</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JP &#8211; some interesting points, to which I offer one possible &#8216;library&#8217; response over at <a href="http://blogs.talis.com/panlibus/archives/2006/09/jp_rangaswami_c.php" rel="nofollow">http://blogs.talis.com/panlibus/archives/2006/09/jp_rangaswami_c.php</a></p>
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		<title>By: panlibus</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9112</link>
		<dc:creator>panlibus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 14:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9112</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;JP Rangaswami contemplates the &#039;livebrarian&#039;&lt;/strong&gt;

 JP Rangaswami, author of the routinely insightful Confused of Calcutta blog, had an interesting post yesterday in which he considered the role of the &#039;livebrarian&#039;. JP is not a librarian. He&#039;s formerly CIO and now &#039;Chief of Alternative Market...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>JP Rangaswami contemplates the &#8216;livebrarian&#8217;</strong></p>
<p> JP Rangaswami, author of the routinely insightful Confused of Calcutta blog, had an interesting post yesterday in which he considered the role of the &#8216;livebrarian&#8217;. JP is not a librarian. He&#8217;s formerly CIO and now &#8216;Chief of Alternative Market&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: John Dodds</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9110</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dodds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9110</guid>
		<description>The problem is that too many damned fools are &quot;librarians&quot;. Not literally librarians, of course, but gatekeepers and guides. I fully take your point about anchors and, by extension, sacred cows but think you are optimistic about the  potential of most would-be librarians.

The livebrarian you identify is an individual requiring a fluid intelligence (derived from a variety of sources) which, in reality, is possessed by very few people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that too many damned fools are &#8220;librarians&#8221;. Not literally librarians, of course, but gatekeepers and guides. I fully take your point about anchors and, by extension, sacred cows but think you are optimistic about the  potential of most would-be librarians.</p>
<p>The livebrarian you identify is an individual requiring a fluid intelligence (derived from a variety of sources) which, in reality, is possessed by very few people.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9073</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9073</guid>
		<description>Thanks Dan, I will take a look. How are you? Small world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Dan, I will take a look. How are you? Small world.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/comment-page-1/#comment-9072</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/25/more-musing-about-search-the-role-of-the-livebrarian/#comment-9072</guid>
		<description>So we&#039;re back to &quot;trained experts&quot; and &quot;professionals&quot; and &quot;thou shalt not pass until you show the secret sign&quot; and &quot;this is complex, you won&#039;t understand it&quot;.

My problem is I really think that any damned fool can be a librarian. Trained people tend to have the anchors and frames that the trainers put in. Training is good. Education is better.

And if we are talking semantics about training and education, I would use the traditional example of sex training versus sex education.

I think we need to be careful.


Maybe that&#039;s just me.

I fully take on the points about the social engagement and general social aspects of it. Markets are conversations.

I have met quite a few excellent librarians and booksellers whose education is real life and whose training is passion.

We need to be careful. No holy of holies please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So we&#8217;re back to &#8220;trained experts&#8221; and &#8220;professionals&#8221; and &#8220;thou shalt not pass until you show the secret sign&#8221; and &#8220;this is complex, you won&#8217;t understand it&#8221;.</p>
<p>My problem is I really think that any damned fool can be a librarian. Trained people tend to have the anchors and frames that the trainers put in. Training is good. Education is better.</p>
<p>And if we are talking semantics about training and education, I would use the traditional example of sex training versus sex education.</p>
<p>I think we need to be careful.</p>
<p>Maybe that&#8217;s just me.</p>
<p>I fully take on the points about the social engagement and general social aspects of it. Markets are conversations.</p>
<p>I have met quite a few excellent librarians and booksellers whose education is real life and whose training is passion.</p>
<p>We need to be careful. No holy of holies please.</p>
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