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	<title>Comments on: Continuing with the &#8220;livebrarian&#8221; theme</title>
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	<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/</link>
	<description>a blog about information</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen Smoliar</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9297</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Smoliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:10:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9297</guid>
		<description>I think John has hit the nail squarely on the head with his distinction between unvarnished and untouched.  I also agree that Clarence Fisher knows how to &quot;touch;&quot;  and, if I am to believe what I have read about him, then he deserves all the awards and recognition he has received.  Unfortunately, he is only one person;  and that has two implications:

First, I suspect that his skill in &quot;touching&quot; is inversely proportional to the number of people he has to &quot;touch;&quot;  at it remains to be seen how &quot;reproducible&quot; (to invoke Giddens language) that skill is.

Secondly, as my father has always delighted in saying, &quot;One is not a statistic!&quot;

To develop that point, I really cannot figure out, for the life of me, just how good Judy Breck&#039;s Golden Swamp is at &quot;touching.&quot;  Since I think this would be a great way to pursue this discussion, I invite everyone to visit the site at:

http://goldenswamp.com/

I do not need to be sold on how cool it is, but that may be the problem.  To invoke another metaphor, my consider is the Golden Swamp may be one of the best circuses on the Web at a time when we have all those students (and probably plenty of teachers, too) hungry for bread.  (All those jokes comparing the Bush Administration to the Roman Empire are finally beginning to register with me!)

Don&#039;t get me wrong.  It is not my intention to disparage cool.  However, just as there has never been a Royal Road to Geometry, there will never be a &quot;Superhighway to Being in the World.&quot;  I am not just concerned that Generation M may be untouched by teachers who can guide without disrupting those &quot;unvarnished selves;&quot;  I am concerned that the extent to which they perceive the world through their media experience may be leaving them untouched by the world itself!

ZEN FLESH, ZEN BONES includes a story about the master teacher of Zen, Gasan (an unvarnished self if ever there was one).  The story goes that he was visited by a university student who brought along a copy of the New Testament and read him passages from the Sermon on the Mount.  After hearing the text, Gasan said, &quot;Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood.&quot;  If we cannot communicate with Generation M through today&#039;s classrooms, can we at least figure out how to &quot;touch&quot; them as the student &quot;touched&quot; Gasan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think John has hit the nail squarely on the head with his distinction between unvarnished and untouched.  I also agree that Clarence Fisher knows how to &#8220;touch;&#8221;  and, if I am to believe what I have read about him, then he deserves all the awards and recognition he has received.  Unfortunately, he is only one person;  and that has two implications:</p>
<p>First, I suspect that his skill in &#8220;touching&#8221; is inversely proportional to the number of people he has to &#8220;touch;&#8221;  at it remains to be seen how &#8220;reproducible&#8221; (to invoke Giddens language) that skill is.</p>
<p>Secondly, as my father has always delighted in saying, &#8220;One is not a statistic!&#8221;</p>
<p>To develop that point, I really cannot figure out, for the life of me, just how good Judy Breck&#8217;s Golden Swamp is at &#8220;touching.&#8221;  Since I think this would be a great way to pursue this discussion, I invite everyone to visit the site at:</p>
<p><a href="http://goldenswamp.com/" rel="nofollow">http://goldenswamp.com/</a></p>
<p>I do not need to be sold on how cool it is, but that may be the problem.  To invoke another metaphor, my consider is the Golden Swamp may be one of the best circuses on the Web at a time when we have all those students (and probably plenty of teachers, too) hungry for bread.  (All those jokes comparing the Bush Administration to the Roman Empire are finally beginning to register with me!)</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong.  It is not my intention to disparage cool.  However, just as there has never been a Royal Road to Geometry, there will never be a &#8220;Superhighway to Being in the World.&#8221;  I am not just concerned that Generation M may be untouched by teachers who can guide without disrupting those &#8220;unvarnished selves;&#8221;  I am concerned that the extent to which they perceive the world through their media experience may be leaving them untouched by the world itself!</p>
<p>ZEN FLESH, ZEN BONES includes a story about the master teacher of Zen, Gasan (an unvarnished self if ever there was one).  The story goes that he was visited by a university student who brought along a copy of the New Testament and read him passages from the Sermon on the Mount.  After hearing the text, Gasan said, &#8220;Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood.&#8221;  If we cannot communicate with Generation M through today&#8217;s classrooms, can we at least figure out how to &#8220;touch&#8221; them as the student &#8220;touched&#8221; Gasan?</p>
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		<title>By: panlibus</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9287</link>
		<dc:creator>panlibus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9287</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Rangaswami revisits the livebrarian&lt;/strong&gt;

 In a conversation that grows more interesting with each iteration, JP Rangaswami last night revisited his original thoughts on the &#039;livebrarian&#039;. I responded to his initial post yesterday, and would now like to drill down a little more into...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Rangaswami revisits the livebrarian</strong></p>
<p> In a conversation that grows more interesting with each iteration, JP Rangaswami last night revisited his original thoughts on the &#8216;livebrarian&#8217;. I responded to his initial post yesterday, and would now like to drill down a little more into&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9278</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9278</guid>
		<description>....which is why we need people like clarence fisher and judy breck.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;.which is why we need people like clarence fisher and judy breck&#8230;..</p>
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		<title>By: John Dodds</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9275</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dodds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9275</guid>
		<description>I think I share the disquiet of Stephen on this. I am enjoying this thread very much because the goal is such an admirable one and we should all work towards it, no question. But I increasingly realise how fortunate I was to receive the quality of early (non-private) education that I did and specifically the ability to formulate and research an argument. 

For me the true role of education is learning how to learn and when that foundation is laid then great potential is unleashed as I have witnessed in my university days here and in the US. I agree with JP that unvarnished selves should be encouraged but on both sides of the ocean an increasing proportion of people are not so much unvarnished as untouched. 

If you are functionally illiterate and or innumerate, the ability to search is hugely compromised and in many cases the will to search is destroyed. I hope I&#039;m not being overly defeatist on this (and I am sure that the combination of &quot;literate&quot; individuals and social software is immense even if the literate are a minority), but when I move away from this keyboard and the incredible insights and opinions to which it gives me access, I am very aware of a huge and I think growing digital divide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I share the disquiet of Stephen on this. I am enjoying this thread very much because the goal is such an admirable one and we should all work towards it, no question. But I increasingly realise how fortunate I was to receive the quality of early (non-private) education that I did and specifically the ability to formulate and research an argument. </p>
<p>For me the true role of education is learning how to learn and when that foundation is laid then great potential is unleashed as I have witnessed in my university days here and in the US. I agree with JP that unvarnished selves should be encouraged but on both sides of the ocean an increasing proportion of people are not so much unvarnished as untouched. </p>
<p>If you are functionally illiterate and or innumerate, the ability to search is hugely compromised and in many cases the will to search is destroyed. I hope I&#8217;m not being overly defeatist on this (and I am sure that the combination of &#8220;literate&#8221; individuals and social software is immense even if the literate are a minority), but when I move away from this keyboard and the incredible insights and opinions to which it gives me access, I am very aware of a huge and I think growing digital divide.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9244</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9244</guid>
		<description>I guess I must have my wires crossed somewhere. Stephen, I am all for education, all for education in the use of social software, all for the use of social software in education. And I don&#039;t think that&#039;s where the corrupting anchors and frames come in. I also agree wholeheartedly that we are impoverished in our parenting skills, and, particularly with the onset of nanny states, risking being impoverished in many other things, especially risk appetite and risk-taking.

The constraining and often corrupting anchors and frames I speak of tend to be in us. Not all of us, but many of us. I am part of that many.

I see a whole new opportunity in Generation M, who for some reason have managed to avoid some of the biases and corruptions. And my pushback against expertise is in order to give them, and the generation after them, the ability to bring their unvarnished selves to bear on all of us.

Does that make any more sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I must have my wires crossed somewhere. Stephen, I am all for education, all for education in the use of social software, all for the use of social software in education. And I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s where the corrupting anchors and frames come in. I also agree wholeheartedly that we are impoverished in our parenting skills, and, particularly with the onset of nanny states, risking being impoverished in many other things, especially risk appetite and risk-taking.</p>
<p>The constraining and often corrupting anchors and frames I speak of tend to be in us. Not all of us, but many of us. I am part of that many.</p>
<p>I see a whole new opportunity in Generation M, who for some reason have managed to avoid some of the biases and corruptions. And my pushback against expertise is in order to give them, and the generation after them, the ability to bring their unvarnished selves to bear on all of us.</p>
<p>Does that make any more sense?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Smoliar</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9240</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Smoliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9240</guid>
		<description>John, the independent school system in California, where my wife teaches, has recognized that such things as search skills are a matter of &quot;media literacy&quot; and deserve a place in the middle-school curriculum (if not earlier).  I am not sure how many public school systems have given this more than lip service, but what can you do when you lack the resources of most independent schools?  John Seely Brown used to like to say that you see the future in what the kids around you are doing.  Unfortunately, he never used to promote the corollary:  You can SHAPE the future by the education and guidance you provide those kids!  I just do not buy JP&#039;s idea that the education and guidance we can provide is a matter of bias or corruption.  I just worry that, for too much of the population, both education and parenting have become so impoverished that they are corrupting both values and the general sense of being-in-the-world.  If that is the case, then we have little to expect from the Wisdom of Future Crowds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, the independent school system in California, where my wife teaches, has recognized that such things as search skills are a matter of &#8220;media literacy&#8221; and deserve a place in the middle-school curriculum (if not earlier).  I am not sure how many public school systems have given this more than lip service, but what can you do when you lack the resources of most independent schools?  John Seely Brown used to like to say that you see the future in what the kids around you are doing.  Unfortunately, he never used to promote the corollary:  You can SHAPE the future by the education and guidance you provide those kids!  I just do not buy JP&#8217;s idea that the education and guidance we can provide is a matter of bias or corruption.  I just worry that, for too much of the population, both education and parenting have become so impoverished that they are corrupting both values and the general sense of being-in-the-world.  If that is the case, then we have little to expect from the Wisdom of Future Crowds.</p>
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		<title>By: John Dodds</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/comment-page-1/#comment-9218</link>
		<dc:creator>John Dodds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2006/09/26/continuing-with-the-livebrarian-theme/#comment-9218</guid>
		<description>If the technology exists to tag everything more efficiently, what is the guidance role of the livebrarian? Is it that of helping to formulate the questions of the searchers and, if so, how can you ensure that this is done objectively?

The point about children is an interesting one. My searching skills were clearly formulated within my education (pre-search engines) and, I believe, they enhance my search engine-based searches. I presume (because I know I would do it if I were young) that children today go straight to Google and I wonder if they are given any guidance on how to use it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the technology exists to tag everything more efficiently, what is the guidance role of the livebrarian? Is it that of helping to formulate the questions of the searchers and, if so, how can you ensure that this is done objectively?</p>
<p>The point about children is an interesting one. My searching skills were clearly formulated within my education (pre-search engines) and, I believe, they enhance my search engine-based searches. I presume (because I know I would do it if I were young) that children today go straight to Google and I wonder if they are given any guidance on how to use it.</p>
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