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	<title>Comments on: Where Agile meets Planning</title>
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	<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/</link>
	<description>a blog about information</description>
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		<title>By: JEDI &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2007-06-01</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-140862</link>
		<dc:creator>JEDI &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2007-06-01</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jun 2007 10:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-140862</guid>
		<description>[...] Where Agile meets Planning &#124; confused of calcutta (tags: agile fixedprice) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Where Agile meets Planning | confused of calcutta (tags: agile fixedprice) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: carnival of the agilists, 1-mar-07 &#171; silk and spinach</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-131158</link>
		<dc:creator>carnival of the agilists, 1-mar-07 &#171; silk and spinach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 13:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-131158</guid>
		<description>[...] And finally, the other Thomas Otter passes on &#8216;the quote of the year so far&#8217;:  &#8220;software estimation is a bit like growing ear hair&#8221; &#8212; JP Rangaswami [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] And finally, the other Thomas Otter passes on &#8216;the quote of the year so far&#8217;:  &#8220;software estimation is a bit like growing ear hair&#8221; &#8212; JP Rangaswami [...]</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-02-16 (Leapfroglog)</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100811</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-02-16 (Leapfroglog)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 06:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100811</guid>
		<description>[...] Where Agile meets Planning &#124; confused of calcutta What contracts actually suit agile projects? JP Rangaswami investigates&#8230; (tags: contracts agile development design business software) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Where Agile meets Planning | confused of calcutta What contracts actually suit agile projects? JP Rangaswami investigates&#8230; (tags: contracts agile development design business software) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Agile contracts versus covenants &#124; confused of calcutta</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100687</link>
		<dc:creator>Agile contracts versus covenants &#124; confused of calcutta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 21:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100687</guid>
		<description>[...] reader I&#8217;ve never met (and I&#8217;ve met a goodly number), Andrew Ochsner, then commented on how he had been looking serendipitously at something similar, and referred me to a paper by Kent [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reader I&#8217;ve never met (and I&#8217;ve met a goodly number), Andrew Ochsner, then commented on how he had been looking serendipitously at something similar, and referred me to a paper by Kent [...]</p>
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		<title>By: mobmash blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2007-02-15</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100399</link>
		<dc:creator>mobmash blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; links for 2007-02-15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Feb 2007 00:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100399</guid>
		<description>[...] Where Agile meets Planning &#124; confused of calcutta (tags: agile software development business strategy) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Where Agile meets Planning | confused of calcutta (tags: agile software development business strategy) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Ochsner</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100360</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Ochsner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 21:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100360</guid>
		<description>I, too, was just reawakened to this by an old paper from Kent Beck.  Just thought I&#039;d throw it into the mix even though I think these concepts are covered in your list.
http://www.plonesolutions.com/about/OptionalScopeContracts.pdf</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I, too, was just reawakened to this by an old paper from Kent Beck.  Just thought I&#8217;d throw it into the mix even though I think these concepts are covered in your list.<br />
<a href="http://www.plonesolutions.com/about/OptionalScopeContracts.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.plonesolutions.com/about/OptionalScopeContracts.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: Justin Brister</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100207</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Brister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100207</guid>
		<description>Agile is all about unknows and change (kind of). To that end, I can&#039;t see how you can effectively capture that in a formal written contract; especially when you consider that corporate lawyers will be involved ;-)

Most of the Agile work that I am involved in is done using one of two vehicles;

1 - Fixed Price / Fixed Scope
2 - Time and Materials

I would love to see our clients move to something like a price per user story point, with collaboration. Remember, as you move through the cycles you re-estimate and the value of stories changes. How you capture this in a formal contract that all parties are happy with is something that I will leave to the lawyers, and good luck to them.

I guess the solution is, the contract can only take you so far. What is key is the relationship, trust and level of collaboration between all parties to ensure the right outcome; business value for the client and their customers and profit for the supplier. Perhaps I am too naive?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Agile is all about unknows and change (kind of). To that end, I can&#8217;t see how you can effectively capture that in a formal written contract; especially when you consider that corporate lawyers will be involved ;-)</p>
<p>Most of the Agile work that I am involved in is done using one of two vehicles;</p>
<p>1 &#8211; Fixed Price / Fixed Scope<br />
2 &#8211; Time and Materials</p>
<p>I would love to see our clients move to something like a price per user story point, with collaboration. Remember, as you move through the cycles you re-estimate and the value of stories changes. How you capture this in a formal contract that all parties are happy with is something that I will leave to the lawyers, and good luck to them.</p>
<p>I guess the solution is, the contract can only take you so far. What is key is the relationship, trust and level of collaboration between all parties to ensure the right outcome; business value for the client and their customers and profit for the supplier. Perhaps I am too naive?</p>
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		<title>By: John Wilson</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100183</link>
		<dc:creator>John Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 11:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100183</guid>
		<description>JP, I think you&#039;ll enjoy this &quot;conference&quot; site.  www.waterfall2006.com 

Ingenious.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JP, I think you&#8217;ll enjoy this &#8220;conference&#8221; site.  <a href="http://www.waterfall2006.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.waterfall2006.com</a> </p>
<p>Ingenious.</p>
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		<title>By: Ric</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/comment-page-1/#comment-100139</link>
		<dc:creator>Ric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 08:10:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/02/13/where-agile-meets-planning/#comment-100139</guid>
		<description>Waterfall and its in-concrete relations make dangerous and unrealistic assumptions that:
1. the customer knows exactly and unchangeably what they want
2. the customer is able to clearly and unambiguously describe those needs
3. the developer completely comprehends that description, and
4. the developer can translate that understanding into a system that works in time and on budget.

Now I KNOW I&#039;m always going to have some trouble with 3 and 4 (as a developer), and I&#039;m pretty sure that 1 and 2 are shaky too. I think Cockburn also points out that the people on the project are first-order variables in its success - this to me means that the methodology we choose should fit the people available rather than the other way around - especially if we have smart people. While I&#039;m aware that there are project managers around that can successfully build space shuttles, the likelihood that they are available and affordable to most software projects is slim. So rather than try to change the way the people you DO have work, why not cut the methodology to fit? In my experience this will USUALLY result in some aspect of Agile being most effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Waterfall and its in-concrete relations make dangerous and unrealistic assumptions that:<br />
1. the customer knows exactly and unchangeably what they want<br />
2. the customer is able to clearly and unambiguously describe those needs<br />
3. the developer completely comprehends that description, and<br />
4. the developer can translate that understanding into a system that works in time and on budget.</p>
<p>Now I KNOW I&#8217;m always going to have some trouble with 3 and 4 (as a developer), and I&#8217;m pretty sure that 1 and 2 are shaky too. I think Cockburn also points out that the people on the project are first-order variables in its success &#8211; this to me means that the methodology we choose should fit the people available rather than the other way around &#8211; especially if we have smart people. While I&#8217;m aware that there are project managers around that can successfully build space shuttles, the likelihood that they are available and affordable to most software projects is slim. So rather than try to change the way the people you DO have work, why not cut the methodology to fit? In my experience this will USUALLY result in some aspect of Agile being most effective.</p>
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