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	<title>Comments on: On Identity and Argumentative Indians and a few other things</title>
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	<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/</link>
	<description>a blog about information</description>
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		<title>By: Stephen Smoliar</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119617</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Smoliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119617</guid>
		<description>Gordon, everything you say about the production processes of film and the other media is true.  However, the &quot;core competencies&quot; have been around far longer than those media!  As a matter of fact, most of the content of Aristotle&#039;s &quot;Poetics&quot; has far more to do with transitions than with states.  You get a better sense of this when you look at the &quot;Commentary for Students of Literature&quot; that Hardison published then when you try to get &quot;the straight dope&quot; from Aristotle.  Nevertheless, Aristotle taught as a man who seemed to have enjoyed going to the theater;  and that greatly enhances the value of the text!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon, everything you say about the production processes of film and the other media is true.  However, the &#8220;core competencies&#8221; have been around far longer than those media!  As a matter of fact, most of the content of Aristotle&#8217;s &#8220;Poetics&#8221; has far more to do with transitions than with states.  You get a better sense of this when you look at the &#8220;Commentary for Students of Literature&#8221; that Hardison published then when you try to get &#8220;the straight dope&#8221; from Aristotle.  Nevertheless, Aristotle taught as a man who seemed to have enjoyed going to the theater;  and that greatly enhances the value of the text!</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Smoliar</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119609</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Smoliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:41:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119609</guid>
		<description>JP, my guess is that Blue Meanie is referring, as I had done earlier, to the Dust Bowl, although I think it is interesting that the Wikipedia entry for the Dust Bowl does not contain the word &quot;famine:&quot;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl

Note, by the way, that there is still a weasel word in your synopsis of Sen&#039;s argument:  &quot;correctly.&quot;  Apply the reasoning to global warming, and you should see what I mean.  Even among democratic and independent countries with the blessings of a free press, the response to the evidence of global warming has been inadequate by almost any standard.  However, whether or not a response is correct ultimately depends upon the outcome, which we shall not know until we get there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JP, my guess is that Blue Meanie is referring, as I had done earlier, to the Dust Bowl, although I think it is interesting that the Wikipedia entry for the Dust Bowl does not contain the word &#8220;famine:&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dust_Bowl</a></p>
<p>Note, by the way, that there is still a weasel word in your synopsis of Sen&#8217;s argument:  &#8220;correctly.&#8221;  Apply the reasoning to global warming, and you should see what I mean.  Even among democratic and independent countries with the blessings of a free press, the response to the evidence of global warming has been inadequate by almost any standard.  However, whether or not a response is correct ultimately depends upon the outcome, which we shall not know until we get there.</p>
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		<title>By: On project management and famine &#124; confused of calcutta</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119598</link>
		<dc:creator>On project management and famine &#124; confused of calcutta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119598</guid>
		<description>[...] reader at Blue Meanie commented on my Amartya Sen quote, and it made me [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reader at Blue Meanie commented on my Amartya Sen quote, and it made me [...]</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119596</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 16:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119596</guid>
		<description>Blue Meanie, I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t know much about famine in the US in the 1930s, I am more aware of those that struck the Ukraine and China. 

I don&#039;t think that Amartya Sen was trying to play semantics on the meaning of &quot;substantial&quot;. If I have interpreted him correctly, his assertions are as follows: (a) famine is often preventable (b) there are early signs (c) if people respond correctly to the signs then the substance of the famine can be averted.

I will look out for more comprehensive evidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blue Meanie, I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t know much about famine in the US in the 1930s, I am more aware of those that struck the Ukraine and China. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that Amartya Sen was trying to play semantics on the meaning of &#8220;substantial&#8221;. If I have interpreted him correctly, his assertions are as follows: (a) famine is often preventable (b) there are early signs (c) if people respond correctly to the signs then the substance of the famine can be averted.</p>
<p>I will look out for more comprehensive evidence.</p>
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		<title>By: bbm</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119504</link>
		<dc:creator>bbm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 10:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119504</guid>
		<description>&quot; No substantial famine has ever occurred in any independent and democratic country with a relatively free press&quot;

This is something I have read before and often wondered about. Is it really true and what does it imply in cause/effect? What (if any) other factors are at play?  We all know that human societies are complex and very little that happens can be reduced to one or two factors.

In any case, I always invariable think about the famine in the USA in the 1930s.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; No substantial famine has ever occurred in any independent and democratic country with a relatively free press&#8221;</p>
<p>This is something I have read before and often wondered about. Is it really true and what does it imply in cause/effect? What (if any) other factors are at play?  We all know that human societies are complex and very little that happens can be reduced to one or two factors.</p>
<p>In any case, I always invariable think about the famine in the USA in the 1930s.</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Cook</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119391</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 00:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119391</guid>
		<description>Stephen,  just when I think this is played out you give me another spurt. :-) The Stoppard work I read about in a recent New Yorker.  Ah yes it is about my most favorite period of 19th century Russia.  The struggles of Belinskii, Herzen and Bakunin to deal with their feelings of guilt about serfdom in the context of Hegelianism between roughly 1836 and the liberation of the serfs in 1861.  I inhaled all this literature in 1965-1966 while a grad student in Russian Politics under Leonard Schapiro at the London School of Economics.

And you are dead right â€“ the STATE was known to these tortured Russian aristocrats.  It was the TRANSITION that was unknown.  They all were developing different and conflicting paths on how to get from where they were to where they wanted to be.

I steadfastly agree that in this new technology world it is the TRANSITION that stumps us and about which we argue.

Here I want to try an analogy.  Perhaps only someone with a career in media and film directing and production combined with tech consulting can succeed, What does a film director do but use visual media to tell complex stories of transition? Over the past 3 months I have gotten to know a bit about a man of my mail list.  This person lurks.  Hardly every says anything.  He has a 40 year long career in film.  I wonâ€™t name him until he gives me a green light.  But if you were to put his name in Google  a really impressive dossier emerges.  And in California three weeks ago I heard from him a 20 minute or so portrait of the great transition we are in.  Best portrait of this subject I have ever heard!  Quite stunning and I am wondering if this framework that he has constructed could only have been arrived at by someone with such a visual artistic, story telling background.  

So I ask can only someone with this kind of background stand a good chance of building and explaining and architecture of transition.  Maybe â€“ Just maybe.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stephen,  just when I think this is played out you give me another spurt. :-) The Stoppard work I read about in a recent New Yorker.  Ah yes it is about my most favorite period of 19th century Russia.  The struggles of Belinskii, Herzen and Bakunin to deal with their feelings of guilt about serfdom in the context of Hegelianism between roughly 1836 and the liberation of the serfs in 1861.  I inhaled all this literature in 1965-1966 while a grad student in Russian Politics under Leonard Schapiro at the London School of Economics.</p>
<p>And you are dead right â€“ the STATE was known to these tortured Russian aristocrats.  It was the TRANSITION that was unknown.  They all were developing different and conflicting paths on how to get from where they were to where they wanted to be.</p>
<p>I steadfastly agree that in this new technology world it is the TRANSITION that stumps us and about which we argue.</p>
<p>Here I want to try an analogy.  Perhaps only someone with a career in media and film directing and production combined with tech consulting can succeed, What does a film director do but use visual media to tell complex stories of transition? Over the past 3 months I have gotten to know a bit about a man of my mail list.  This person lurks.  Hardly every says anything.  He has a 40 year long career in film.  I wonâ€™t name him until he gives me a green light.  But if you were to put his name in Google  a really impressive dossier emerges.  And in California three weeks ago I heard from him a 20 minute or so portrait of the great transition we are in.  Best portrait of this subject I have ever heard!  Quite stunning and I am wondering if this framework that he has constructed could only have been arrived at by someone with such a visual artistic, story telling background.  </p>
<p>So I ask can only someone with this kind of background stand a good chance of building and explaining and architecture of transition.  Maybe â€“ Just maybe.</p>
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		<title>By: JP</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119293</link>
		<dc:creator>JP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:14:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119293</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s an offbeat way of restating why I started this blog. Will explain more in a post sometime this weekend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an offbeat way of restating why I started this blog. Will explain more in a post sometime this weekend.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Smoliar</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119292</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Smoliar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 16:03:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119292</guid>
		<description>Gordon, you know far more about Russian history than I do;  but I think you are raising the same theme that Stoppard addressed in his COAST OF UTOPIA trilogy:

http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/stoppt/coastofu.htm

The titles of the three plays say something about the author&#039;s point of view:  &quot;Voyage,&quot; &quot;Shipwreck,&quot; &quot;Salvage.&quot;  You may have also heard that, after the first play opened at Lincoln Center, there was a mad dash to buy up copies of Berlin&#039;s RUSSIAN THINKERS.

I think it is interesting to consider the analogy between Stoppard&#039;s conception of a search for Utopia and your perspective of the search for identity.  As you probably know, Berlin took a very dim view of Utopian thinking, not just from the Russians.  This is best captured in &quot;The Pursuit of the Ideal,&quot; which is the lead essay in THE CROOKED TIMBER OF HUMANITY.  His basic idea resonates very nicely with the sort of language we are inclined to use.  The &quot;tragic flaw&quot; (if I may wax Aristotelian) of a Utopia is that it is a STATE, which means that it can never accommodate any &quot;real world&quot; context, since that context will always be in flux.

I think we can reflect this back on questions of identity.  Trying to deal with identity as some kind of state will result in an equally tragic flaw.  While it is true that, at an abstract level, we can always &quot;freeze time&quot; and &quot;capture&quot; at least SOME of the attributes and relations that would count for a &quot;state description,&quot; I would argue that where &quot;the crooked timber of humanity&quot; is concerned, our understanding of identity resides in the TRANSITIONS rather than any artificial &quot;states&quot; we construct, often just because they are more compatible with our databases!

The kicker, however, is that we really have not yet gotten our minds around the alternative.  We know how to describe state;  but our skills for describing transitions are impoverished, often reduced to saying little more than &quot;what happens between these two states.&quot;  The last time I harped on this was in a discussion over the opensourcing of process:

http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/03/13/more-musings-about-the-opensourcing-of-process/#comment-113419

In another comment I suggested that the best way to confront the problem would be through a better understanding of the rich diversity in the grammar of verbs:

http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/03/13/more-musings-about-the-opensourcing-of-process/#comment-113463

This, in turn, reflects back on much of the life-work of Kenneth Burke and his efforts to develop a theory of &quot;dramatistic&quot; (as opposed to &quot;scientistic&quot;) thinking:

http://therehearsalstudio.blogspot.com/2007/01/narrative-of-outsourcing.html

Readers of the above link will see that I have also invoked Burke to address another one of JP&#039;s favorite topics:

http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/01/22/tell-me-what-you-come-here-for-boy/

I suppose this all demonstrates just how tightly coupled the nature of identity is to so many other equally complex concepts!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gordon, you know far more about Russian history than I do;  but I think you are raising the same theme that Stoppard addressed in his COAST OF UTOPIA trilogy:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/stoppt/coastofu.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/stoppt/coastofu.htm</a></p>
<p>The titles of the three plays say something about the author&#8217;s point of view:  &#8220;Voyage,&#8221; &#8220;Shipwreck,&#8221; &#8220;Salvage.&#8221;  You may have also heard that, after the first play opened at Lincoln Center, there was a mad dash to buy up copies of Berlin&#8217;s RUSSIAN THINKERS.</p>
<p>I think it is interesting to consider the analogy between Stoppard&#8217;s conception of a search for Utopia and your perspective of the search for identity.  As you probably know, Berlin took a very dim view of Utopian thinking, not just from the Russians.  This is best captured in &#8220;The Pursuit of the Ideal,&#8221; which is the lead essay in THE CROOKED TIMBER OF HUMANITY.  His basic idea resonates very nicely with the sort of language we are inclined to use.  The &#8220;tragic flaw&#8221; (if I may wax Aristotelian) of a Utopia is that it is a STATE, which means that it can never accommodate any &#8220;real world&#8221; context, since that context will always be in flux.</p>
<p>I think we can reflect this back on questions of identity.  Trying to deal with identity as some kind of state will result in an equally tragic flaw.  While it is true that, at an abstract level, we can always &#8220;freeze time&#8221; and &#8220;capture&#8221; at least SOME of the attributes and relations that would count for a &#8220;state description,&#8221; I would argue that where &#8220;the crooked timber of humanity&#8221; is concerned, our understanding of identity resides in the TRANSITIONS rather than any artificial &#8220;states&#8221; we construct, often just because they are more compatible with our databases!</p>
<p>The kicker, however, is that we really have not yet gotten our minds around the alternative.  We know how to describe state;  but our skills for describing transitions are impoverished, often reduced to saying little more than &#8220;what happens between these two states.&#8221;  The last time I harped on this was in a discussion over the opensourcing of process:</p>
<p><a href="http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/03/13/more-musings-about-the-opensourcing-of-process/#comment-113419" rel="nofollow">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/03/13/more-musings-about-the-opensourcing-of-process/#comment-113419</a></p>
<p>In another comment I suggested that the best way to confront the problem would be through a better understanding of the rich diversity in the grammar of verbs:</p>
<p><a href="http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/03/13/more-musings-about-the-opensourcing-of-process/#comment-113463" rel="nofollow">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/03/13/more-musings-about-the-opensourcing-of-process/#comment-113463</a></p>
<p>This, in turn, reflects back on much of the life-work of Kenneth Burke and his efforts to develop a theory of &#8220;dramatistic&#8221; (as opposed to &#8220;scientistic&#8221;) thinking:</p>
<p><a href="http://therehearsalstudio.blogspot.com/2007/01/narrative-of-outsourcing.html" rel="nofollow">http://therehearsalstudio.blogspot.com/2007/01/narrative-of-outsourcing.html</a></p>
<p>Readers of the above link will see that I have also invoked Burke to address another one of JP&#8217;s favorite topics:</p>
<p><a href="http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/01/22/tell-me-what-you-come-here-for-boy/" rel="nofollow">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/01/22/tell-me-what-you-come-here-for-boy/</a></p>
<p>I suppose this all demonstrates just how tightly coupled the nature of identity is to so many other equally complex concepts!</p>
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		<title>By: Gordon Cook</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119175</link>
		<dc:creator>Gordon Cook</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Apr 2007 04:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119175</guid>
		<description>While on the subject of Sir Isiah Berlin, I met the man once at his office at CUNY in 1966. I am chagrined to admit that I had no idea until much later what a giant he was.  The description of his night with Akhmatova is one of the most glorious in all the literature on Russian culture and civilization.

Finally may I recommend Russian Ark, a 2002 film by Alexander Sokurov.  Stunning - for me especially because I visted St Petersberg on 8 different occasions in the 1990s staying always in the apartment off the same Russian friends.  The ermitage is portrayed therein as integral to the identity of the Russian nation. The ARK that preserved Russian culture.

I view 19th century Russian history as tragic outcome of the search for identity carried out by the russian nobility beginning with the conclusion of the napoleonic campaigns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While on the subject of Sir Isiah Berlin, I met the man once at his office at CUNY in 1966. I am chagrined to admit that I had no idea until much later what a giant he was.  The description of his night with Akhmatova is one of the most glorious in all the literature on Russian culture and civilization.</p>
<p>Finally may I recommend Russian Ark, a 2002 film by Alexander Sokurov.  Stunning &#8211; for me especially because I visted St Petersberg on 8 different occasions in the 1990s staying always in the apartment off the same Russian friends.  The ermitage is portrayed therein as integral to the identity of the Russian nation. The ARK that preserved Russian culture.</p>
<p>I view 19th century Russian history as tragic outcome of the search for identity carried out by the russian nobility beginning with the conclusion of the napoleonic campaigns.</p>
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		<title>By: Book Review: Identity and Violence at Blogbharti</title>
		<link>http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/comment-page-1/#comment-119075</link>
		<dc:creator>Book Review: Identity and Violence at Blogbharti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/04/07/on-identity-and-argumentative-indians-and-a-few-other-things/#comment-119075</guid>
		<description>[...] reviewing Amartya Sen&#8217;s book &#8220;Identity and Violence&#8221;, JP says  I have rarely seen a sentence that touches upon so many of my interests at the same time, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] reviewing Amartya Sen&#8217;s book &#8220;Identity and Violence&#8221;, JP says  I have rarely seen a sentence that touches upon so many of my interests at the same time, [...]</p>
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