Comments on: Just freewheeling on social software and communities http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/ a blog about information Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:20:53 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Andy O http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-183948 Andy O Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:13:39 +0000 http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/#comment-183948 To be fair, I'm searching for a few and coming up a bit short. Definitely agree that he's against some practices of XP (pair programming) but he's not the first or last. He insists that developers get their own offices w/ doors that shut (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/07/30.html), which, to me, doesn't feel like any agile team I've been on. Being able to sit together and feel like you're a part of the whole team is very important to me. But, to your point, I can't find anything where he's against Agile. Just a bit less of the practices I prefer, and a bit more of some that I don't (a bit more Design Up Front than I like, but not Big Design Up Front). He prefers to work from a spec, which isn't a bad thing but can go wrong fast. (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000036.html). A good spec is valuable, but sometimes challenging. And spending a lot of time on the spec rather than the software is detrimental. I haven't seen him make any mention of TDD, rather you should make time for Debugging sessions (something that I hardly ever do when I have a good suite of tests) (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000245.html). Looking at the Joel Tests (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html) I can see Agility in there. It's just not the Agile I know, and I'm fully aware he's adapted his processes to work for him which is good. As for lowering the cost of change, I believe you must use Agile principles when we develop software in order to lower the cost of change. If you don't use Agile principles, then you don't adapt to change fast enough (or at all). That was my only point. If you aren't using Agile, you likely aren't lowering the cost of change as you develop software. To be fair, I’m searching for a few and coming up a bit short. Definitely agree that he’s against some practices of XP (pair programming) but he’s not the first or last. He insists that developers get their own offices w/ doors that shut (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2006/07/30.html), which, to me, doesn’t feel like any agile team I’ve been on. Being able to sit together and feel like you’re a part of the whole team is very important to me. But, to your point, I can’t find anything where he’s against Agile. Just a bit less of the practices I prefer, and a bit more of some that I don’t (a bit more Design Up Front than I like, but not Big Design Up Front). He prefers to work from a spec, which isn’t a bad thing but can go wrong fast. (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000036.html). A good spec is valuable, but sometimes challenging. And spending a lot of time on the spec rather than the software is detrimental. I haven’t seen him make any mention of TDD, rather you should make time for Debugging sessions (something that I hardly ever do when I have a good suite of tests) (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000245.html).

Looking at the Joel Tests (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html) I can see Agility in there. It’s just not the Agile I know, and I’m fully aware he’s adapted his processes to work for him which is good.

As for lowering the cost of change, I believe you must use Agile principles when we develop software in order to lower the cost of change. If you don’t use Agile principles, then you don’t adapt to change fast enough (or at all). That was my only point. If you aren’t using Agile, you likely aren’t lowering the cost of change as you develop software.

]]> By: JP http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-183839 JP Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:54:16 +0000 http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/#comment-183839 Andy, I'm intrigued by what you say. I read Joel regularly, and he hasn't come across that way to me. If anything, my take was that he supports Agile quite openly, but has major reservations about the extent to which Agile has been systematised in certain quarters. Do you have references to posts or articles where he slams Agile? I have seen some that slam some forms of XP, and some that suggest that people are fossilising what is meant to be an adaptive process. And I don't understand your other point about how he lowers the cost of change. It's not about him or you or me. It's about the way we develop software nowadays. Andy, I’m intrigued by what you say. I read Joel regularly, and he hasn’t come across that way to me. If anything, my take was that he supports Agile quite openly, but has major reservations about the extent to which Agile has been systematised in certain quarters. Do you have references to posts or articles where he slams Agile? I have seen some that slam some forms of XP, and some that suggest that people are fossilising what is meant to be an adaptive process.

And I don’t understand your other point about how he lowers the cost of change. It’s not about him or you or me. It’s about the way we develop software nowadays.

]]> By: JP http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-183835 JP Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:39:09 +0000 http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/#comment-183835 When I say Absolutely I mean I agree with what you say 100%. When I say Absolutely I mean I agree with what you say 100%.

]]> By: Stephen Smoliar http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-183826 Stephen Smoliar Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:34:05 +0000 http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/#comment-183826 JP, when you say "Absolutely," are you speaking as one of the bean-counters; or are you just confirming the validity of the question? I do not know what things are like in YOUR enterprise; but, on this side of the pond, I have yet to find a bean-counter who can think beyond the data for the next quarterly report! Indeed, one of the scariest things about the IBM "rush" into "services science" is how little thought is being given to compensation models, "scientific" or otherwise. http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-Mff23hgidqmHGqbcv.lfskakEtS6qLVHUEMFUG4-?cq=1&p=82 JP, when you say “Absolutely,” are you speaking as one of the bean-counters; or are you just confirming the validity of the question? I do not know what things are like in YOUR enterprise; but, on this side of the pond, I have yet to find a bean-counter who can think beyond the data for the next quarterly report! Indeed, one of the scariest things about the IBM “rush” into “services science” is how little thought is being given to compensation models, “scientific” or otherwise.

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-Mff23hgidqmHGqbcv.lfskakEtS6qLVHUEMFUG4-?cq=1&p=82

]]> By: Andy O http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/comment-page-1/#comment-183825 Andy O Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:33:51 +0000 http://confusedofcalcutta.com/2007/09/05/just-freewheeling-on-social-software-and-communities/#comment-183825 I find it kind of ironic, however, that Joel doesn't really get behind Agile development. Most of his recent articles around it really feel anti-Agile. So, just how much can he lower the cost of change? I find it kind of ironic, however, that Joel doesn’t really get behind Agile development. Most of his recent articles around it really feel anti-Agile. So, just how much can he lower the cost of change?

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